The Plan

5/20/2019

Monday, May 20, 2019

John 16:28-33: [Jesus is saying,] " I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father. His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech. Now we know that You know all things and do not need anyone to question You. This is why we believe that you came from God."

Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe? Behold, the hour is coming. Indeed it has come when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am ot alone, for the Father is with me. I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart. I have overcome the world."

Jesus' Plan is Revealed:
Jesus is heading back to the Father. Jesus is heading back to heaven. At this moment in time, Jesus is not revealing that between now and when He goes back to the Father, He will be arrested, beaten, tried, nailed to a cross, crucified, die, be buried and rise to life. At this moment in time, the disciples, I don't think, could have handle that brutal part of the truth.

At the same time, Jesus is revealing that they, the disciples, will go through their own torment and struggles. Out of fear, the disciples will run away from Jesus. One will betray Him. One will deny knowing Him. The rest of them will scatter, fearing for their own lives.

Then Jesus finally reveals His encouragement to His disciples. Jesus has overcome the world. Jesus has done it through what He went through. It seems backwards.

Yet it is as straightforward as possible. Because Jesus was the victim of the sins of the entire world, He was the Victor over sin, death, and the influence of Satan. Jesus defeated death. Jesus gives life through His death and resurrection. "Stop being afraid." Jesus told them. "The world has not and will not defeat me."

The Plan is for US:
We are just like the disciples, the hand picked twelve. We deny knowing Jesus because it is easier than facing obstacles and possible rejection by friends and family. When tough things in life happen, we run away from the ONE who will guide through the tough stuff. Then we stand alone in our grief, sadness, and confusion without a guide who helps us through.

Then Jesus tells us not to worry. The hardships of life are hard. That is a given. So live by means of your faith. "Trust me." Jesus says to us. "The world did not defeat me. So I will not let it defeat you."

So believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. You will be saved.

Got questions? Got thoughts? Let's talk about them together.

41 Comments

gary

5/24/2019 02:54:24 pm

Just how historically reliable are the Gospels and Acts if even prominent conservative Bible scholars believe that fictional accounts may exist in these books? I have put together a list of statements from scholars and historians such as Richard Bauckham, William Lane Craig, Michael Licona, Craig Blomberg, and NT Wright on this issue:

https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/2019/05/23/bombshell-how-historically-reliable-are-the-gospels-if-even-conservative-bible-scholars-believe-they-may-contain-fictional-stories/

Pastor Robert

5/25/2019 08:54:19 am

Gary,
Thank you for your question.

Scholars in recent, meaning the last sixty years, history have called into question the historicity of the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

For me, the question is not whether scholars “believe” that there is fiction in the books. The real question is, “Do you believe that God inspired Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to write the historical accounts of Jesus and the Apostles?

I believe that the men who wrote the Biblical accounts of history and theology were inspired by God the Holy Spirit. Because I believe that the Holy Spirit inspired them to write the history of Jesus and His salvation along with the works of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the Apostles and the people who believed, I therefore believe that that history is both accurate and true. It does not contain errors or fiction.

Gary, it comes down to who you believe, in whom you believe, and what you believe. For me and my house, we believe that God the Holy Spirit caused the Scriptures to be written by men and He lead them to write the truth. The truth is that Jesus, true man AND true God lived on earth and His life, death, resurrection, and ascension was recorded rightly and without errors or fiction. It is the same with the Acts of the Apostles.

I will look at the link you provided. If you specific questions about accounts, I am open to discuss them.

Pastor Robert

gary

5/25/2019 10:03:47 am

"I believe that the men who wrote the Biblical accounts of history and theology were inspired by God the Holy Spirit. Because I believe that the Holy Spirit inspired them to write the history of Jesus and His salvation along with the works of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the Apostles and the people who believed, I therefore believe that that history is both accurate and true. It does not contain errors or fiction."

Good morning, Pastor Robert.

Do you believe the above due to historical evidence or due to faith?

Pastor Robert

5/25/2019 11:47:55 am

Dear Gary,

I believe that what is written in the Gospels is historical. I also believe that God the Holy Spirit caused Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to write about events that actually happened. So the answer to your question is, “Both.”

I read through your blog. If I read it correctly, you are challenged by the truth of the resurrection. I remember you mentioning Matthew’s account of the saints rising from the graves and walking around the city. You quoted Mr. Licona. Mr. Licona does not think that it happened. That is, his opinion. I think and believe that it did happen. I know that it happened because the Holy Spirit through Matthew’s writing says it did. I do not understand fully the point of it. I don’t know what happened to them after that day. We don’t have all the details. That does not make the event any less true.

Here is my point. My faith and trust in God leads me to believe and trust in what He had written. There is a lot in the Holy Bible that boggles my mind. Some of it doesn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t make sense because I have a limited mind and because I am a sinner. I could say that since The accounts don’t make sense to me, therefore it did not happened. At the same time I know, believe, and trust God more than I trust me or the opinions of scholars. Therefore I accept what I cannot understand. I believe and trust God, Father, Son who is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, one God in three persons, more than I trust men.

If you are interested, there is a source I recommend you take a look at. It is titled, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell. They discuss some of the questions you raise regarding the resurrection.

Pastor Robert

gary

5/25/2019 02:42:03 pm

Hi Pastor,

Yes, I've read the McDowell's book.

You said, "My faith and trust in God leads me to believe and trust in what He had written."

Faith can mean different things to different Christians. What is your definition of "faith"?

Pastor Robert

5/26/2019 08:34:10 am

Gary,

I’ll use Hebrews 11:1-2 to define faith for me.

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it, the people of old received their commendation.” (English Standard Version)

Then the rest of Hebrews 11 talks about the people of faith in the Old Testament. Paul in Romans 4 quotes Habakkuk in teaching about the faith of Abraham.

Faith is a confidence that I have, and the people of God that I lead have, in the life that God gives by means of the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus.

Allow me to define this hope that we have for a moment. Hope is not a wish or a desire. Hope is something more. Hope comes from sufferings as Paul describes in Romans 5:1-11. Hope is solid and sure. Faith is the confidence that believes that hope.

Faith is also the conviction that we have to know and trust and stand in things that we cannot see. What did Jesus say to Thomas after Jesus showed Thomas His hands and side?

“‘Put your finger here and see my hands. And put out your hand and place it in my side. DO NOT DISBELIEVE BUT BELIEVE.’l (English Standard Version emphasis mine) Then Jesus told Thomas after Thomas believed, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen me and yet believed.” ( English Standard Version John 20:29)

Jesus told Thomas to stop his disbelief because Thomas did not see. Jesus is telling Thomas, and us, to believe and trust and be assured and convicted of the truth of Jesus.

And finally, our faith is not blind. It is built on a trust of God who has revealed His life and will to us through His Word. To back this up, I want to share from John one piece that will, I wish, help you to see why I trust the truth and accuracy of the written Word.

Now Jesus did other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book. But these things are written that you may believe the Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:30-31 English Standard Version)

Pastor Robert

gsry

5/26/2019 10:26:21 am

Good morning, Pastor.

So if we combine your above statements, your belief in the historicity of the supernatural events described in the Gospels is based on historical evidence and "confidence that believes that hope".

So: historical evidence and confident hope.

Is hope a reliable method of determining universal truth claims?

Pastor Robert

5/26/2019 05:41:28 pm

Gary,

Confident hope is a byproduct of faith. My confidence is in God and His salvation. My confidence in God is faith and it believes the historicity of the recorded Word of God.

I do want to say something about hope in general. The way that I use the word hope is different than the way the world uses it. Hope is not “wishful thinking” or “I hope for a pair of skates for Christmas.” Hope for Christians is founded on the reality of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Therefore faith in God leads me to have a sure and certain hope in my resurrection.

Pastor Robert

Gary

5/26/2019 06:13:22 pm

" Hope for Christians is founded on the reality of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

So your faith/hope in the claims of the Bible is not a case of jumping blind off a cliff or wishful thinking. Your belief is based on provable facts. Would it be correct to say that your belief in the supernatural claims about Jesus is based on trust in the historical evidence for these claims? If so, aren't you really saying that your belief in the supernatural claims of the Gospels are based 100% on historical evidence? I don't see what "faith" has to do with it.

I believe that Alexander the Great attacked and destroyed the city of Tyre. I would never describe my belief in this historical event using the term "faith".

Why bother using the term "faith" if it just means: trust in the historical evidence?

gary

5/26/2019 06:22:12 pm

Let's put this definition of faith into Hebrews 11:1-2:

“Now faith is trust in the historical evidence, the conviction of things proven true with historical evidence. For by it, the people of old received their commendation.” (English Standard Version)

Do you think that is the definition of faith used by the author of Hebrews, Paul, and Jesus?

Pastor Robert

5/27/2019 09:21:54 am

Gary,

I noticed that you posted twice. Please allow me to start my reply to your last post first.

What you wrote referring to Hebrews 11:1 isn’t what the ESV says. “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for. The conviction of things unseen.” What is hoped for? Eternal life. Faith in God brings people like you and me eternal life with God when we believe that God the Son, Jesus, died on a cross to forgive you and I of our sins. Faith is believing that a sinner, conceived in and steeped in sin will be forgiven faith is believing that Jesus’ blood washed a sinner like you and me clean and took away our sin. Faith is believing that God the Father raised His Son Jesus from the grave alive so that we have the promise of resurrection after we die. Our faith and hope is based upon God. The historical record of Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ascension in the Bible is evidence that God brings forgiveness and life.

Ultimately our faith is in God to bring sinners salvation and new life. The Bible is God’s accounting of His actions.

Now allow me to address your second to last post. Can you prove that you will be raised from death? I can’t. Yet I believe that God will raise me and all believers to eternal life with Him because He raised Jesus from death to life. Why would I believe this? It is because God already raised Jesus. Please read 1st Corinthians 15 and Romans 5:1 through 6:11. God through Paul makes a great point about our resurrection as it connects to Jesus’.

Please allow me to make one additional point. My faith is based on what God promises what He has done and will do for me in order to give me life. I have life with God now as well as forever because of what God did for me through Jesus.

Pastor Robert

gary

5/27/2019 10:59:32 am

"Faith is believing that God the Father raised His Son Jesus from the grave alive so that we have the promise of resurrection after we die. Our faith and hope is based upon God. The historical record of Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ascension in the Bible is evidence that God brings forgiveness and life."

That sounds like "historical evidence".

"My faith is based on what God promises what He has done and will do for me in order to give me life."

Belief or trust in someone's promises sounds like "hope".

What percentage of your belief in the supernatural claims of the Gospels is based on historical evidence and what percentage is based on hope? 50/50? 80/20?

Pastor Robert

5/27/2019 11:05:29 am

Gary,

Before I answer you question, please answer mine because I think we’re talking past each other.

What do you consider “ historical evidence?”

Pastor Robert

gary

5/27/2019 02:26:36 pm

Hi Pastor.

I would define "historical evidence" as the kind of evidence we would use to determine the historicity of any other historical claim. No one that I know of says that they have "faith" that Germany invaded Poland in 1939. We either have historical evidence for this alleged event or we don't. "Hope" plays no role in our determination of the historicity of Germany's invasion of Poland.

I have to be honest, Pastor, I find your definition of faith to be very convoluted and vague. The author of Hebrews is very clear about his definition of faith: Faith is the assurance and conviction of things hoped for and unseen. There is nothing about historical evidence in that statement.

The author of Ephesians describes faith in this way: Believers are saved by God's grace through faith. And this faith is not something created or produced by the believer. Faith is entirely a gift from God. That doesn't sound like historical evidence played any role in this Christian author's spiritual belief system.

Paul says this in Romans: "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba![m] Father!” 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[n] with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ—if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him."

Paul says here that the Spirit bears witness of the truth of the teachings of Jesus. Paul says nothing about historical evidence.

Isn't this the true, biblical, definition of Christian faith: Faith is belief in the supernatural claims (things unseen) about Jesus found in the Christian scriptures. And this belief is given to us as a gift by God, not of our own understanding and creation. Its veracity is confirmed by the testimony of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

I suspect that what you really mean by faith is the conviction in your heart (brain) that a spirit lives inside your body giving you life direction, special insight, comfort, and peace. Am I correct?

Pastor Robert

5/29/2019 07:44:27 am

Gary,

First of all, I want to apologize for not responding sooner. My wife and I were traveling home yesterday.

I have a couple of questions for you.

What did the Hebrews not see?

The people listed in chapter 11 believed that would what He said He was going to do. In other words, they believed God would fulfill His promise.

Faith is the assurance and conviction that God would do what He said He was going to do.

What was the one most important thing that God was going to do?

God promised to send “a deliverer” to save people from their sins. This deliverer was promised the day of man’s fall into sin as recorded in Genesis 3. God promised an enmity, or barrier, to separate His people from Satan. This enmity is a person who will suffer because of the torment of Satan. At the same time He would crush Satan and defeat him.

Who is this person who will defeat Satan?

I believe that this person is Jesus.

What do you believe Jesus came to do?

I believe that Jesus, fully God because He was conceived by means of the Holy Spirit, fully man because He was born a human being by Mary, is the promised Messiah, as the Jews called The one to save them, that saved me from my sins. I believe that Jesus is the promise fulfilled. I believe that Jesus gave me grace.

What is grace?

Grace is forgiveness and life. In order to receive that forgiveness, blood had to be shed. For the Old Testament Jews, it was the blood of a lamb which was a one year old male that had no defect. For me, Jesus is “the Lamb who was slain” as pictured in Revelation 21.

Grace is the promise of sins forgiven and the fulfillment of the Law of God. So there is no need to boast. It is the gift of God as Paul says.

I believe that Jesus is the means by which God forgave us. Jesus is the gift.

What is the role of the Holy Spirit?

He is the one who reminds me of everything that Jesus did. (John 16:4-23) The Holy Spirit is my motivator, He convicts of my sin as well as my belief in my forgiveness.

So to clear things up. I have faith that God promised salvation. Salvation happened in my life through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

What do you believe?

Pastor Robert

gary

5/29/2019 10:08:43 am

Good morning, Pastor.

"God promised to send “a deliverer” to save people from their sins. This deliverer was promised the day of man’s fall into sin as recorded in Genesis 3. God promised an enmity, or barrier, to separate His people from Satan. This enmity is a person who will suffer because of the torment of Satan. At the same time He would crush Satan and defeat him."

The problem with appealing to OT prophesy as evidence for the validity of Christianity's supernatural claims is that the evidence that these prophecies have been fulfilled is contested. Very, very few Jewish Bible scholars would concede that even one prophesy about a crucified, resurrected Messiah exists in the Hebrew Scriptures. I know that Christians have proof verses on this issue, but my point is, the evidence can't be that good if so many experts reject it. And by the way, many modern historians believe that Abraham was a fictional character.

"I believe that Jesus, fully God because He was conceived by means of the Holy Spirit, fully man because He was born a human being by Mary, is the promised Messiah, as the Jews called The one to save them, that saved me from my sins. I believe that Jesus is the promise fulfilled. I believe that Jesus gave me grace."

Yes. You believe these things by (blind) faith which is nothing more than wishful thinking. You have said above that majority expert opinion is irrelevant to you if it conflicts with your faith based beliefs.

Is blind faith in the veracity of ancient middle eastern holy books a reliable method of evaluating universal truth claims, Pastor?

Pastor Robert

5/30/2019 11:07:34 am

Gary,

Thank you for giving to me an "Aha" moment. Let me ask you a question.

Do you believe, without bringing up experts' opinions, that the Holy Bible is historically accurate, authoritative for Christian living, and for the basis of faith and trust in God?

The reason I ask you this question, is because I believe that the Holy Bible, also known as the Word of God, is historically accurate, is authoritative for the Christian life, and as the basis of my life as a Christian.

Why do I believe this?
As I think I mentioned earlier, I believe in the power of God the Holy Spirit who inspired men to record the history of God's people accurately and truthfully. I believe He also inspired the prophets to proclaim and write God's will for His people correctly, accurately, and truthfully. I also believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to write the history with accuracy and truthfully along with the letters to the churches.

I trust and believe in the POWER of GOD to make sure that what HE wanted written about Him and His people is accurate, trustworthy, and truthful.

Do you trust the opinions of experts more than you trust the power of God to determine the truthfulness of the Holy Bible?

I read experts to help me understand the extra-biblical story of the culture and times that surround what is recorded in the Bible. It helps me know better why God had the Scriptures written in the way He wanted written. Experts in the language help me see how it was used, the grammar and structure of the language, along with possible English translations.

Yet I trust God more to tell me the truth about Him and His people. I trust God more to preserve and treasure His Word. I trust God more than experts to leave His Word for me that is truth-full, accurate, and efficacious to build my faith and trust in God.

Why do I trust God over experts?

Experts have opinions and points of view regarding the Bible. Experts write from their point of view either to support the biblical teaching or not. Yes, I have heard that some experts do not support the Bible's account of Abraham. I also know that some don't accept the account of a world wide flood or the account of creation.

My point is, I trust God more than experts because of who He is. God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. God revealed His characteristics through His Holy Word. God revealed His Will for people through the history, the prophets, and the apostles, God revealed His salvation of people in the reality of Jesus Christ.

Therefore my belief and trust in God, who He is and what He has done, is not blind. It is founded solely on God. Men are fallible Men are sinners. God is neither. My life and trust is in God. So when experts' opinions come in conflict with God, I will trust God. Because if I don't trust God, then my faith is blind and useless. Who will save me from my sins? Me? No. Only God can save me. I trust that more than anything else.

Does that mean I think the opinions of experts are irrelevant? No, for as shared earlier, their expertise can be of help to me. I am sorry that you perceived that. So let me be as clear as I can.

My faith is in God. I trust Him with my life. I put my life into His hands. I know what He has done for me. God has grace-fully saved this sinner. I cannot and, in many ways, will not please Him. I trust the truth of His will. His will is to save me. Salvation is accomplished by the power of Jesus who bled and died for me. My new life was guaranteed by Jesus' resurrection. Therefore I will dedicate my life to His service.

Why do I believe this? I know through what He shared in the Bible. This is my universal truth claim.

What are your "universal truth claims?"

Pastor Robert

gary

5/30/2019 01:27:30 pm

Good morning, Pastor Robert.

"Do you believe, without bringing up experts' opinions, that the Holy Bible is historically accurate,"

How can anyone answer that question without appealing to the opinion of historians and other experts? Were you there when all these alleged events occurred? Of course not. So the only way that you can trust the historical accuracy of this collection of ancient texts is to trust what historians and scholars tell you about it.

Unless...you believe that a supernatural spirit, living inside your body, gives you secret insight and wisdom on these issues. But that brings us to this question: What evidence can you provide that confirms that this "spirit" really exists and is not just your internal dialogue with yourself?

If your answer is: Because the Bible tells me so, then you have just created the classical "circular argument", which is considered a logical fallacy: "I believe that the Bible is historically accurate because God tells me in my heart that it is. And how do I know that the God living in my heart is real? Because the Bible tells me so." Bad logic, Pastor Robert. Bad logic.

"My faith is in God. I trust Him with my life. I put my life into His hands. I know what He has done for me. God has grace-fully saved this sinner. I cannot and, in many ways, will not please Him. I trust the truth of His will. His will is to save me. Salvation is accomplished by the power of Jesus who bled and died for me. My new life was guaranteed by Jesus' resurrection. Therefore I will dedicate my life to His service. Why do I believe this? I know through what He shared in the Bible. This is my universal truth claim."

Paraphrase: My trust in the reality of (the Christian) God is based on my personal, non-expert opinion that the Bible is historically accurate and on my personal experiences and feelings related to this belief.

What would you say to a person of another world religion who says the exact same thing about his God: "My trust in the reality of the Hindu Gods is based on my personal, non-expert opinion that the Hindu Scriptures are historically accurate and on my personal experiences and feelings related to this belief.

Pastor Robert

5/31/2019 02:18:42 pm

Gary,

I had an idea that we were on two different ends of the spectrum on the Bible. Now I know that we are. For example, you said,

How can anyone answer that question without appealing to the opinion of historians and other experts? Were you there when all these alleged events occurred? Of course not. So the only way that you can trust the historical accuracy of this collection of ancient texts is to trust what historians and scholars tell you about it.

I can answer that question without appealing to opinions of experts. The reason I can is based upon the one that I trust for my very life both now and forever. I trust God.

I do read experts and historians, as I mentioned yesterday. The experts and historians I read look as the Bible from Textual Critical point of view, like I do. This point of view can be summarized by the statement, "Let Scripture interpret Scripture." So when I study the Bible when I am preparing for a sermon or Bible study, I start with learning what does the Bible say about... I learn about God's interaction with people. I learn about Jesus' teachings and life, etc.Then I look to the rest of the Bible as it relates for my study or sermon. I do read commentators and historians that study the Bible and the history using the same method of interpretation as I do.

The experts that you consult come from a point of view called, "Historical Critical." It looks at the Bible not from within itself, but from outside itself. And what started the conversation we are having was the premise that the resurrection cannot be shown historically outside of the Bible. Therefore it cannot be true. The experts that you read, is that what they are basically saying?

My point is, experts often disagree because they are studying the Bible from two different points of view.

Gary, it goes back to what I said, I think yesterday. I trust God to communicate what He wants to communicate. I trust God more that I trust people because we, meaning people, do not agree on what the Bible says and doesn't say. Therefore my trusted source of life is God who inspired the Bible to be written, who made sure that it is without error, and I trust God who keeps it true and relevant for the lives of all people.

You stated,

Unless...you believe that a supernatural spirit, living inside your body, gives you secret insight and wisdom on these issues. But that brings us to this question: What evidence can you provide that confirms that this "spirit" really exists and is not just your internal dialogue with yourself?

I believe in God. He is beyond "supernatural." God is eternal. God is spirit. God is three persons. He is Father. He is Son. He is Holy Spirit. And He is not three gods. He is ONE God.

It is not a "secret insight and wisdom" from my own thoughts. I don't concoct this. I don't have a "revelation" that shows up. The source of my wisdom comes from the Word that God caused to be written. What is my evidence for what I know, trust, and believe from? It is the Bible about which we are divided about its' trustworthiness and accuracy.

If I may ask, what do you look to learn from the Bible? If it is not the accuracy of it, then what?

You said,

If your answer is: Because the Bible tells me so, then you have just created the classical "circular argument", which is considered a logical fallacy: "I believe that the Bible is historically accurate because God tells me in my heart that it is. And how do I know that the God living in my heart is real? Because the Bible tells me so." Bad logic, Pastor Robert. Bad logic.

Logic is a tool. It is not a life philosophy. Logic can, and often does, lead to false conclusions. Logic helps to make sense of things. The biggest problem with logic is, from what point of view do you start? In our case, we start our logic from two different points of view. We come to our conclusions based upon both our starting points and our presuppositions.

Here is where we differ. What you call bad logic makes sense to me. Why? Our starting points are different.

You said,

Paraphrase: My trust in the reality of (the Christian) God is based on my personal, non-expert opinion that the Bible is historically accurate and on my personal experiences and feelings related to this belief.

Is your expert right? Am I right? Are you right? Is my expert right? Your expert could be wrong. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. My expert could be wrong.

Gary this boils down to trust. Who do you trust? Trust is not an emotion. Trust is a state of mind. For example, you trust your experts are truthful because you agree with their conclusions. I trust God is truthful because I agree with His conclusions. My trust is bolstered, or strengthened, by my experiences.

My trust begins with a simple truth.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.
And Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified,

Gary

5/31/2019 03:21:07 pm

How would an outsider know if you are correct or if our fictitious Hindu man is correct? You both very sincerely believe that your god(s) and your holy book contain the one and only truth? Based on what could we determine who is right and who is wrong?

gary

6/2/2019 10:56:23 am

And here is a statement from a Hindu website about "truth":

"Do you know God’s name, qualities, address, description, history dating back to billions of years, witnessed by millions, and proven? If you can answer these questions, only then can you truly say you know God. The Vedic [Hindu] scriptures are the oldest scriptures in the World and the only scriptures that can answer all these questions and in detail. The Vedic scriptures completely describe God. His history, address, qualities, description, how he creates and maintains and so on. That God is Lord Krishna."

So who's "truth" is true? Either your God is God or the Hindu God is God (or neither). Obviously sincere belief and "faith" are not enough. How do we determine if you are right or the Hindus are right?

Pastor Robert

6/3/2019 09:55:01 am

Gary,

How would I approach a Hindu, or a Buddist, or a Muslim, of an agnostic, or an atheist? I would not start with the truth of their teachings or mine. I would ask a simple question.

"How do you think that you will get to heaven?"

I would surmise that almost every person asked would answer the question something like this.

"If I live a good life and treat people nicely, try to follow the rules, then I think that God would look favorably and let me in."

Then my next question would be,

"How well are you doing?"

Since you brought up the Hindu religion, the person may reply,

"If I don't do well enough now, I'll be reincarnated to try again."

A Latter Day Saint, AKA Mormon, would say,

"If I don't do well enough here, I have three levels of heaven to work through."

Then my reply would be,

"I know that I will not get to heaven and be with God because of how good my life is on earth. I will get to be with God because He is merciful and full of grace and He forgave me of my sins and shortcomings because of Jesus."

I would not start with who's Bible is right or wrong. That argument would not bear the fruit needed. I would start with the common denominator of every world religion. They have, using their own term, a heaven, a place where they will reside with their God. They all have a plan in order to get to their heaven. Christianity's plan is different from all the others.

Only Christianity has God coming to people as a person to be the sacrifice for all of the sins of the people. Only Christianity does God sacrifice Himself for the sake of people. Our way into heaven to be with God is not based upon our own works and actions. When you search yourself and are honest with yourself, you know that you can't fill the hole in your soul because of what you do or don't do. The hole in the soul is the "image of God" that is missing. What is missing in our lives is the intimacy and connectedness to God, who gives meaning and purpose to our lives. Every world religion except Christianity thinks that hole can be filled by living the right lives.

Can you live the right life, Gary? I know I can't. I can only trust God to save me. I can only trust God the Son, Jesus Christ and to take away my sins.I can only trust God the Holy Spirit to fill my hole in my soul with His truth as He convicts me of my sin and converts my life to the reality of Jesus.

That is how I would start the conversation.

Yes, Hinduism is one of the oldest world religions. Christianity is one of the youngest. Each has its' "Scriptures" and writings. Are you proposing that since Hinduism is older, than it in "more right?"

Here is where I stand. You have two sets of writings, both claiming they are true. In order to determine which one is true, you can compare and contrast each to the other and use experts in their fields to validate or invalidate the other in order to find out the truth.

And what will your conclusion be? Will it be based on a logical deduction of the facts? Will you use testimonies of those who are adherents to both religions in order to validate truth? Or will it be based upon who you trust? Ultimately, it will come down to what evidence you trust. I trust God who had the Bible written so that I will trust His promise to lead me to be with Him both now and forever.

And that takes us back to where we started.

I have another question for you. What if you're wrong? Are you willing to trust the experts for your eternal life or God?

Pastor Robert

Gary

6/3/2019 10:37:34 am

Good morning, Pastor Robert.

You said, "They all have a plan in order to get to their heaven. Christianity's plan is different from all the others."

Question: Just because a "plan" is unique, does that make it true?

"Here is where I stand. You have two sets of writings, both claiming they are true. In order to determine which one is true, you can compare and contrast each to the other and use experts in their fields to validate or invalidate the other in order to find out the truth."

You said above that you don't trust majority expert opinion. Why are you now appealing to experts?

"I have another question for you. What if you're wrong? Are you willing to trust the experts for your eternal life or God?"

And this is why I find your belief system so appalling. It is ultimately based on fear. Fear of the unknown. No one knows what happens after death. Religions use this fear of the unknown to coerce people to believe. But here is my answer to your question:

It is not a binary choice: Christianity or atheism. There are many exclusivist religions on the planet. If you choose one exclusivist religion (Christianity) you must reject all the others. There is no safe bet. The fact of the matter is that all world religions are based on the beliefs of ancient, scientifically ignorant, superstitious people. My bet is that they are all wrong.

Pastor Robert

6/5/2019 09:00:19 am

Gary,

I our dialogue yesterday, you raised questions regarding my replies. Please allow me to try to answer them more fully.

I admit, I am a fallible man. I admit that I need more clarity to communicate my thoughts and beliefs. At the same time, I am a forgiven fallible man who trusts God to forgive me of my sins. And, as Jesus shares with us how to pray, He says, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

So I ask for your forgiveness for not being clear enough.

With that shared, if I may.

You asked,

Question: Just because a "plan" is unique, does that make it true?

On one side of the coin, no. On the other side, yes because you trust the author of the plan. The plan that God has for my life, and yours, is true. I trust God.

For example, I was watching a documentary hosted by an Israeli archeologist attempting to prove the accounts in 1st and 2nd Samuel of the life and kingdom of David. To set the tone, the history of the nation of Israel is based upon the historical record in 1st and 2nd Kings and 1st and 2nd Chronicles. The archeologist is not saying that David didn't exist. She is saying the size of the kingdom couldn't have existed because she couldn't find any external biblical evidence of it. Therefore she rejected the biblical accounts.

My reply to her, as well as to you, is, even if there isn't any other evidence to support and/or contradict, doesn't conclude the record is not true.

You said,

You said above that you don't trust majority expert opinion. Why are you now appealing to experts?

As I have mentioned previously, there are many, not all, experts I use. There are many that I don't. At the same time, the experts are not my primary source. The experts I do use give me background information regarding the Biblical evidence and the Biblical languages. I recognize that there are experts who come to different conclusions regarding the Bible than I. And, just because an expert disagrees about the Bible, does not conclude the Bible is not true.

As I review our conversation, I still conclude the root of our dialogue and disagreement comes from our trust in our sources.

You said,

And this is why I find your belief system so appalling. It is ultimately based on fear. Fear of the unknown. No one knows what happens after death. Religions use this fear of the unknown to coerce people to believe. But here is my answer to your question:

Now I am even more curious to know you more. First of all, allow me to clarify further. I asked the question, "What if you're wrong?" to help you to see a different source. I apologize and ask you to forgive me for giving you the impression I was trying to scare you. I was not. In my thinking of where to go next in our conversation, it was an attempt to help you see if you have thought about the question. To confess, I have done so in my life before. I have questioned the truth of it. I did not, like you, consult expert writings outside of the Bible. I stayed within the Words of God. My "conclusion" was the same of Thomas as recorded in the Gospel of John. I "heard" Jesus speak to me as He spoke to Thomas, "Stop disbelieving and believe." I did. I am not trying to coerce to believe. I am asking you, "Could you look at the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to show you the truth?"

I am truly sorry that someone, it appears, caused you to be against religions in general, Christianity specifically. I can speak clearly about Christianity and its' claims. Yes, we proclaim that we fall short of God's law and expectations. We will not measure up, no matter what we do or don't do. AT THE SAME TIME, we rely on a gracious and merciful God who forgave our sins through becoming "like us," knowing our experiences, pains, sorrows, and joys. Yet the Son of God, Jesus, was not sinful because being conceived by God, not be a man. Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin on our behalf so that we would be sin free. Jesus died and rose to forgive and give a new life to us so that we will live with Him now and forever with joy and peace.

I hope that this explanation helps know Christianity better, what it is about.

gary

6/5/2019 10:18:30 am

Hi Pastor,

You still have not given a clear, concise explanation for why you believe and trust in the Christian god.

You only trust experts who agree with you, so expert opinion cannot be the primary source of your belief. I suggest that the primary reason you trust in the invisible, inaudible existence of the Christian god is simply because you want to. You have given me no good evidence why either I nor anyone else should believe in this being's existence.

Pastor Robert

6/6/2019 04:23:50 pm

Gary,

Based upon your most recent comment, I just a couple of questions for you.

1. Is there a reason, or reasons, why you need validation from experts outside the Bible before you accept the truth about God as the Bible reveals it?

2. Is there a reason, or reasons, why you dismiss the Bible so readily for the truth that is in it?

I am saddened that you think my discussion has been unclear nor concise. Please allow me to make another attempt for clarity.

1. I trust in God who inspired men to write down His will for mankind along with His actions amongst mankind. The Bible is the source of my life and relationship with God. I read how He acted amongst people to correct, rebuke, and reform. The Bible tells me the greatest, real life, story ever told. That story is, God saving me from my sins, my failures, and my shortcomings and God makes me new. It was done by Jesus. Without the Bible I have no faith. I do not know God. The Bible tells my story, too.
2. Therefore, I will dedicate my life to serving for God and not for myself. I dedicate my life to teach, preach, and confess that God is who He is and that He wants you to believe it also. Why, "For the Bible tells me so." (From the children's hymn, "Jesus Loves Me")

I cannot be anymore clear and concise than that.

Pastor Robert

Gary

6/6/2019 04:30:54 pm

Hi Pastor,

"1. Is there a reason, or reasons, why you need validation from experts outside the Bible before you accept the truth about God as the Bible reveals it?"

I am an educated adult. Unlike a child, I do not believe everything I read. I need evidence to support universal truth claims, in particular, fantastical universal truth claims.

"Is there a reason, or reasons, why you dismiss the Bible so readily for the truth that is in it?"

I dismiss the supernatural truth claims of the Bible for the same reason that I dismiss the supernatural truth claims of the Hindu Scriptures: lack of good evidence.

You believe simply because you want to, Pastor. That is not good enough for me. I demand evidence.

Pastor Robert

6/9/2019 08:41:22 am

Gary,

You said,

I am an educated adult. Unlike a child, I do not believe everything I read. I need evidence to support universal truth claims, in particular, fantastical universal truth claims.

I know that you didn't mean to call me a child, yet I take it as a compliment. For I am a child of God. :-)

Please consider this point as an educated adult. There have been, and continue to be, educated men who accept the Bible as the source of "universal truth claims." I know specifically chemists, physicians, lawyers and judges, accountants, teachers and administrators in education, who accept the Bible as a source of truth. Many of these men and women I know continue to read experts on the subject of the Bible from "both sides of the aisle." And they still remain committed to the universal truth claims of the Bible.

You said,

You believe simply because you want to, Pastor. That is not good enough for me. I demand evidence.

Do I want to believe? Yes.

Doe I believe? Yes.

Why? Because I accept the Bible as a true and reliable source of universal truth.

You demand evidence. Let's work with this statement by asking questions in order to see "What is truth?"

Do I exist? I may be an autonomous computer program designed to answer any question. I could be a series of ones and zeros. Where is the paper trail that you have seen that verifies my existence?

Is there any evidence, if I exist, to what I did with two of my grandchildren this weekend? Other than my own experience and that of a few specific eyewitnesses, no. At the same time, that does not negate the reality that my wife and I enjoyed a weekend with my grandchildren.

What about all the activities of people around the world that were never reported or documented? Did they happen? You demand evidence. I can't give you any additional evidence beyond the fact that they happened. I have to take, at face value, the statements of those who participated as truth.

And one last point on this matter. Critics, those who have opposing views to the recorded data, MAY be right. They also MAY be wrong.

I read through your blog posts. Many of the titles of the articles of the experts you quote and follow use the words "May contain errors and fiction." Now, I am going to talk about grammar for a moment. The usage of the word, "May" alongside a verb like, "Contain" is an indication that is the "Subjunctive" tense of the verb was used. Other words, such as "Could," or "Should," or "Might" can be substituted for "May." The subjunctive tense is used when the writer wants to convey a possibility, that I might be right about a point or I might be wrong.

My point is, even experts with opposing points of view may think that the Bible is false. Yet they can't prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt," that it is.

Since you and I have differing points of view about the Bible, especially the supernatural truth claims, let us set aside that for a moment, and talk about fundamental truths about human interaction. I would like to discuss with you the truths contained in the Ten Commandments as they relate to ways to interact with people. May we do that?

Pastor Robert

gary

6/9/2019 01:07:11 pm

Hi Pastor,

You said, "I know specifically chemists, physicians, lawyers and judges, accountants, teachers and administrators in education, who accept the Bible as a source of truth. Many of these men and women I know continue to read experts on the subject of the Bible from "both sides of the aisle." And they still remain committed to the universal truth claims of the Bible. "

There are thousands, maybe millions of very intelligent, highly educated chemists, physicians, lawyers and judges, accountants, teachers and administrators in education, who accept the Koran as a source of truth.

Some very educated people can be still be very superstitious.

gary

6/9/2019 01:37:09 pm

Note even though there are very intelligent, very educated people in Christian dominant cultures, Muslim dominant cultures, Hindu dominant cultures, Buddhist dominant cultures, and others, most educated people in those cultures adopt the dominant religion of that culture. If one of these supernatural belief systems (religions) had good evidence to support its veracity as the one and only universal truth, we should see a pattern of most educated people in all cultures adopting that one belief system. Educated people do that on most other issues involving evidence. But this isn’t what we see, is it? By and large, all people, educated and uneducated, adopt the supernatural beliefs of their parents. To me this proves that supernatural beliefs are not based on evidence, but on upbringing and culture.

gary

6/9/2019 01:45:57 pm

"Do I exist? I may be an autonomous computer program designed to answer any question. I could be a series of ones and zeros. Where is the paper trail that you have seen that verifies my existence? Is there any evidence, if I exist, to what I did with two of my grandchildren this weekend? Other than my own experience and that of a few specific eyewitnesses, no. At the same time, that does not negate the reality that my wife and I enjoyed a weekend with my grandchildren. What about all the activities of people around the world that were never reported or documented? Did they happen? You demand evidence. I can't give you any additional evidence beyond the fact that they happened. I have to take, at face value, the statements of those who participated as truth."

Yes, we can spend our entire lives asking if we exist in reality or only in the mind of someone else or in a computer program. However, the philosopher Renes Decartes answered that dilemma over 400 years ago: "I think, therefore I am."

Most educated people in the modern world do not sit around wondering about whether or not they exist. The accept as fact thing that are self evident. Just as I do not need to prove to you that my house exists, since it is self-evident to all, I do not need to prove to you that I exist. It is self-evident to all.

Never allow someone to lead you down the rabbit trail of "How do you know that you even exist." It is nothing more than a nonsensical mind game.

"My point is, even experts with opposing points of view may think that the Bible is false. Yet they can't prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt," that it is."

And neither can you prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Hindu Scriptures are false. So what?? Modern educated people so not believe as fact all supernatural truths claims simply because they can't prove them false. The burden of proof is on the person making the fantastical claim. The onus is on YOU, Pastor, to provide good evidence for why we should believe the supernatural claims in the Bible is true. And for me, your personal feelings and perceptions on the issue are not sufficient reason for me to believe. I demand evidence.

Sure. We can talk about the Ten Commandments.

gary

6/9/2019 01:47:37 pm

Sorry for the typos in the last comment.

Pastor Robert

6/10/2019 12:00:05 pm

Gary,

It looks like you had a lot to say since my post yesterday morning. I hope to bring some comment and clarity to your responses to my post.

You said,

Note even though there are very intelligent, very educated people in Christian dominant cultures, Muslim dominant cultures, Hindu dominant cultures, Buddhist dominant cultures, and others, most educated people in those cultures adopt the dominant religion of that culture.

I think you are over generalizing here. "Most educated people in these cultures" do not adopt the dominant religion of the culture. For example, my wife worked with an Indian company for several years. There are four religious cultures in Indian right now. They are Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, and Christian. Do you know what is the fastest growing? A fifth "religious culture" called, "Secular Humanism." It comes from working with western cultures and countries.

So the old axiom, "I am a Christian because my culture, or family, is Christian isn't holding water anymore.

And so I am clear, I don't think that is the way it should be either. Speaking for myself, I grew up Lutheran. But I am not still a Lutheran because of my family. I am a Lutheran because I weighed the Scriptures and our Confessions of faith. I am living according to the truth they contain, which are the Scriptures, and what they theologize, which are the Confessions.

If one of these supernatural belief systems (religions) had good evidence to support its veracity as the one and only universal truth, we should see a pattern of most educated people in all cultures adopting that one belief system.

There is universal truth in all of the worlds religions. You have to look for it.

For example, if you were to research the evidence of from where the world religions came, there was only one religion. When did it begin to break into pieces? After the confusion and creation of languages as a result of the Tower of Babel.

Educated people do that on most other issues involving evidence. But this isn’t what we see, is it? By and large, all people, educated and uneducated, adopt the supernatural beliefs of their parents. To me this proves that supernatural beliefs are not based on evidence, but on upbringing and culture.

So for clarity, you don't consider the Bible, or other religious writings, evidence?

You said,

Never allow someone to lead you down the rabbit trail of "How do you know that you even exist." It is nothing more than a nonsensical mind game.

You missed my point completely as to why I brought that up. My point was not about whether I or you exist. It was about evidence. It was an attempt at an analogy. So to say that my analogy was "a nonsensical mind game" is somewhat offensive to me.

With that said, allow me to ask a "Yes" or "No" question. Do the experts that you have researched definitively say the miraculous events in the Bible did not happen? Do they have proof that contradicts the Bible?

You said,

And neither can you prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Hindu Scriptures are false.

We have not been discussing the variations between religions. Do you want to? I would love to discuss that. You and I have been discussing the interpretation of the Bible in relation to "modern educated people."

So what?? Modern educated people so not believe as fact all supernatural truths claims simply because they can't prove them false. The burden of proof is on the person making the fantastical claim.

Here is where you and I differ again. The burden of proof, according to our judicial system, is on the one attempting to prove falsehood. In this case, I do not have to prove falsehood or truth. I am the defendant. Your argument is, my evidence is false. My argument is, my evidence is true.

The onus is on YOU, Pastor, to provide good evidence for why we should believe the supernatural claims in the Bible is true.

I disagree. I was not the one claiming falsehood.

And for me, your personal feelings and perceptions on the issue are not sufficient reason for me to believe. I demand evidence.

I have given you evidence. You are choosing not to recognize it as evidence.

In all of this discussion, we have not discussed a key element. Who is to judge our evidence? Certainly not me nor you nor your experts. Is the judge, "Popular opinion?" I don't think that will work because popular opinion continues to change.

I believe that God will judge the evidence. When will that happen? At the end of time when all people of every faith and religion will stand before Him.

I would love to begin to discuss the Ten Commandments. Where do you want to start?

Pastor Robert

gary

6/10/2019 02:10:20 pm

"Speaking for myself, I grew up Lutheran. But I am not still a Lutheran because of my family. I am a Lutheran because I weighed the Scriptures and our Confessions of faith. I am living according to the truth they contain, which are the Scriptures, and what they theologize, which are the Confessions."

Did you read books by authors skeptical of Christianity's claims prior to becoming a Christian? If not, you did not examine. You did not examine the evidence prior to believing such fantastical claims as ghost-impregnated virgins, water walking, and corpse reanimation. Why would any modern educated person accept such extraordinary claims without looking at the evidence from all sides?

You only participated in indoctrination, Pastor Robert, and that is what most people on the planet do. They adopt the supernatural beliefs of their parents without asking critical questions.

Pastor Robert

6/11/2019 09:57:44 am

Gary,

You said,

Did you read books by authors skeptical of Christianity's claims prior to becoming a Christian?

No. I became a Christian as a child. And as a young man growing up through my teenage years, there were not skeptical authors out there. I had a history teacher as a senior in high school who was a self proclaimed atheist. Yet he also acknowledged the Old Testament as a valid historical account of the nation of Israel.

But here's the deal. I did do some soul searching regarding my life in my twenties. I challenged in my mind some of the practices, especially in worship, that we did. Yet I never had a crisis of faith, as it seems very obvious you did, so that I would look at other options.

If not, you did not examine.

I examined as I needed to. I did not grow up with the Internet. I grew up in an era where computers were in air conditioned rooms and liquid cooled. I did not have resources at my finger tips as you do. If I felt the need, or questioned my beliefs so much that I wanted to look into something else, I had the Library.

Yet I didn't need to. I still don't. I had, and have, the Bible. Now that I live in an Internet based world with hundreds, if not thousands, of skeptics out there writing about their skepticism, do I desire to check out their opinions? I read them. I acknowledge that they have their opinions. And their opinions will not sway me from my trust and faith in God who inspired writers to record what they saw and heard.

Why would any modern educated person accept such extraordinary claims without looking at the evidence from all sides?

Why don't you accept the extraordinary "claims?" Do you not think that God can't do miracles? Has had anything happen in your life that you could not explain? I would like to know your answers to these questions.

Now back to your question. I cannot answer for the people who I know as to why not. However I will answer from my point of view.

I don't want to nor do I need to. I trust the Word of God, all of it, to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Why? I trust the author.

Now, are we ready to discuss the Ten Commandments?

Pastor Robert

gary

6/11/2019 11:12:43 am

Pastor Robert: "I don't want to nor do I need to [read books by skeptics]. I trust the Word of God, all of it, to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Why? I trust the author."

Muslim: "I don't want to nor do I need to [read books by skeptics]. I trust the Koran, all of it, to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Why? I trust the author."

Hindu: "I don't want to nor do I need to [read books by skeptics]. I trust the Hindu Scriptures, all of it, to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Why? I trust the author."

Mormon: "I don't want to nor do I need to [read books by skeptics]. I trust the Book of Mormon, all of it, to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Why? I trust the author."

Pastor: If you want to believe the Bible as the one and only universal truth, that is your choice. But why are you teaching little children that the Bible is the one and only universal truth when the best evidence you can give for your position is your blind faith in an ancient text???

gary

6/11/2019 11:21:03 am

Which set of ten commandments would you like to discuss, Pastor? I find the second set more interesting. Here is the 10th commandment of the second set of Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 34:

"“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

Maybe you should pick one. I'm not sure where you want to go with this, although I have a hunch.

gary

6/10/2019 02:15:42 pm

"There is universal truth in all of the worlds religions. You have to look for it."

I am talking about Christianity's central claim: That a first century peasant was executed but three days later came back to life in a body possessing supernatural powers, visited friends and family for an extended period of time, then levitated into the clouds, and now sits on a golden throne at the edge of the universe as King of heaven and earth.

There is no good evidence for this claim. If there were, most educated Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, and others would believe it. They believe other historical events based on evidence, so why not this one?

The reason they do not is obvious: The evidence for this claim is poor. Very poor.

Pastor Robert

6/11/2019 10:54:35 am

Gary,

You said,

I am talking about Christianity's central claim: That a first century peasant was executed but three days later came back to life in a body possessing supernatural powers, visited friends and family for an extended period of time, then levitated into the clouds, and now sits on a golden throne at the edge of the universe as King of heaven and earth.

You are missing the greater whole. Yes, Christianity is based upon Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man. The Gospels are the climax of God's salvation of the human race that started the day on which mankind fell into sin.

God's salvation started with the creation of the universe and the creation of people. For the sake of brevity and staying on topic, let us not engage in the "Creation vs. Evolution" debate. Maybe we'll take it up on another day.

After Adam and Eve sinned, God promised a Savior. From Adam and Eve, people populated the earth. Out of all the possible family trees, God chosen one through whom He was bring the promised Savior. Millenia passed, yet God never changed the message. There will be One who will save the people of the world from themselves. Throughout the Old Testament, which is a historical account of the family tree God chose to bring His Savior, there were men and women whose lives pointed to the One yet to come. Were there other nations, races, and religions at that time? Yes. There were many ancient religions that shared recorded common events. Two of those common events are creation and the flood. However, what is the oldest surviving religion in today's world? It is the religion on which Judaism is founded. Every one else is a branch from that root. And it is that root that went through the life of the Jews right into the One whom God promised. No other religion promises a Savior of all people. Islam acknowledges the life of Jesus. Mohammed knew that Jesus lived. Unfortunately, Mohammed only recognized Jesus as a prophet and martyr. Hinduism recognizes that Jesus is one of their thousands of Gods.

Sorry, I digress. Let's go back to the Old Testament. Within the history of the nation of Israel, there are many prophets that God used to bring His Salvation to the people. The actions and the writings of 18 of them are included in the Old Testament. They recorded God's interaction with them, especially about the Savior.

The "claims" of Jesus' conception, birth, life, death, and resurrection were spoken about hundreds of years prior to Jesus' birth. The prophets spoke of one yet to come. The history of Jesus is the confirmation and fulfillment of those prophecies.

The Acts of the Apostles is the history of the early Christian people. While Christianity was expanding, Islam had its' beginnings. Anti-Christian religions were arising. Yet apart from Islam, Christianity's biggest skeptic was the Roman Empire and the religion that Caesar was god. Through all the persecutions, hardships, and struggles, Christianity endured.

Sorry for the lecture. I thought that you needed a deeper picture of Christianity and its' claims. You, and many skeptics, need to acknowledge the foundations of religion from which Christianity comes and why Christianity will continue to endure.

I venture to say, you will disagree with much of my "lecture." You have the opportunity to do so. I am looking forward to it. Yet I hope you will not ignore the truth of God and His actions in the lives of mankind, coming to fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

Pastor Robert

gary

6/11/2019 11:24:45 am

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain... Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

--the Apostle Paul

Pastor Robert

6/12/2019 03:11:13 pm

Gary,

There is much here. Allow me to respond to it one piece at a time.

You said,

Pastor: If you want to believe the Bible as the one and only universal truth, that is your choice. But why are you teaching little children that the Bible is the one and only universal truth when the best evidence you can give for your position is your blind faith in an ancient text???

I am teaching little children about God the Father, God the Son known as Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit and what He did because they need the eternal life that God gives, just like you do.

I am using ancient texts because for over 8000 years combined the have been teaching men, women, and children about God, both His Law and His Gospel.

Why do you base your faith and place your trust in the modern writers? What thoughts, or who lead you, either by intent or unintentional, away from the Scriptures in which you claim to believe in your biography?

In your last post, you pulled a small section out of the first letter of Apostle Paul to the church of Corinth. It said,

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain... Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

--the Apostle Paul

Is it your implication that all Christians who believe in the resurrection should be "most miserable?"

So, for your sake, as well as those who are reading this thread, I want to say that the section you quoted from Paul was taken out of context. I have copied from the English Standard Version (ESV), the whole section on the resurrection of Jesus. Your quotation are the phrases bracketed by the hash tags (##).

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because wI persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. ## And if Christ has not been raised ##, then our preaching is in vain and ## your faith is in vain. ## We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. ## Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, ewe are of all people most to be pitied. ##

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

This is the full section from God through St. Paul on our resurrection. When quoted in the full context, Paul is using the quoted from section as a rhetorical device to support the resurrection, not to diminish it.

At this moment in time on this topic, we are not making any headway. We are both entrenched in our positions. You don't trust the Bible as a valid source of truth. I do. You trust your modern experts and their opinions regarding the Bible. I don't.

Fina

Explore The Word With Pastor Robert Hemsath

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